# on "Raw" canvas



## TatyanaShurtz

What do you think, fellow artists?

I work on "raw" ungessoed canvas or linen. Favorite subject: something that doesn't exist in reality.
I am self taught 50 y.o. artist, have been painting for the last 10 years.


----------



## just

Think what you could do if you were taught.


----------



## TatyanaShurtz

I am taught. You don't believe in self-education?


----------



## just

Claiming self taught is a cliche. It's used as an excuse and a boast. We are all self taught. Nice work BTW.


----------



## TatyanaShurtz

It may be so, I agree, but it's not about bragging, just a true statement. My viewers often ask where I got my education. Hence...


----------



## abt2k15

just said:


> Claiming self taught is a cliche. It's used as an excuse and a boast. We are all self taught. Nice work BTW.


maybe to you lol. if you have the opportunity to go to art school you are not self taught. as simple as that and carved in stone. its a new thing with all the possibilities from
the internet. and "self taught" gets harder to do since companies fill holes left and right with money making concepts.

it doesnt mean you are a better artists than someone from art school but it means you had more hurdles to take than the usual "i love art kid" 
that was sent to artschool paid by parents. 

so just i assume you went to artschool. think about what _you_ could have achieved _without getting someone elses way_ taught ?
it´s also kind of rude to people who maybe would loved going to artschool but didnt have the opportunity.


----------



## just

Something that I said was taken as rude? My points were the term "self taught" has become cliche. It's used to explain their work. Why it's not better or why it's better than you would expect. In other words it really has no precise meaning. It is a useless cliche. 

Yes I went to school in America in the 60's and 70's. I had art in grade school and high school.


----------



## abt2k15

not really. "lying" or "pretending" has become cliche by your definition. the term "self taught" means what it always meant. people abusing the term doesnt change its meaning. its just your association. 

and in a nihilistic (sp?) kind of way might make sense but you can only assume its irrelevant you dont know. i didnt take it as rude either i just said it is kind of an offensive reply to someone who
didnt have the opportunity to get proper traditional education is all.


----------



## TatyanaShurtz

Interesting discussion, but a tad off the topic. What do you think of this painting, dear artists? 

On another note, I didn't want to go to an art school, it was my choice to study on my own. Like one wise artist once said: "art schools can't teach you to be talented." It's no secret, that needed technical skills are achievable without a teacher, it only takes time, persistence and dedication. Nowadays there are plenty lessons online.


----------



## abt2k15

i like the many details being very clean and sharp.


----------



## Mel_Robertson

Beautiful work Tatyana you are gifted for sure, thats the difference how I see it - gifted artists can only be educated in technique the expression is already there.
I visited art college at 16 & showed them my work & they told me "we can't teach you anything".
it didn't make me feel good at all, I was very very sad.


----------



## M Winther

If it's oils you're using, it will cause the canvas to rot over time. A sad end for such fine work. /Mats


----------



## chivy

nice work tatyana, i think its fantastic. dont worry about anyone else, just paint what you want, how you want.
i'm new here, and your the first person i found, just why your question turned into a debate over talent or taught who. seems odd. i would have thought that attitude was a thing for gentlemens clubs and the golf fraternity. 
putting asside talent, or taught by a master of essays, your doing a fantastic thing go for it.

oil paint is a great media isnt it, i use it on everything from linen to sacking, but i prefer paper. i use heavy water colour papers, with traditonal woodprimer as a base coat, then i sketch with a mix of wood primer and oil paint, and finish with just the oil paint. the primer is oil based but dries in hours rather than days and speeds up the painting process. 
so, enjoy your self. 
im going to fill out my user info and sit n wait for the flak.


----------



## M Winther

Oil based primer (with linseed oil in it) is meant for wood. It will with time destroy cloth or paper. There are today alkyd primers (in which the fatty acids have been neutralized) and acrylic primers that serve to isolate the substrate from the oil paint. However, the traditional way is to isolate with some water-based glue, such as rabbit or fish glue. 

One should use a technique that has good permanence, otherwise the colours will begin to change. I own a fine oil painting, made directly on hardboard, that is 60 years old. Chemicals from the hardboard have invaded the paint film and made the colours dull. There is no shine in the colours anymore, so the painting is worthless. What a waste! 

For oils, it's better to use canvas paper than watercolor paper. (However, it doesn't matter if it's only a sketch you're doing.) If one likes to paint on just about anything, then one should use acrylic paints, instead.

Mats


----------



## chivy

thank you m winther, for your concern. 
an argument over the stability of materials? i think ive had that chat with my father and grand father, and both sisters. and i am happy to say "so what?". 
the problems of restoration should be of little interest to the painter. yes canvas will rot over time, ive seen oil on canvas from the 1880s rip under its own weight. and water colour papers grow black mold spots.
*just paint your heart out with what ever you have on what ever you can find. 
*i took to useing oil based primer in the 1970s, as an answer to the water based acrylic gesso primers used by canvas supliers. i find oil paint cracks and peals from such a support.* 
i see a caveman, looking over the shoulder of another, as he draws bison on a cave wall with a lump of charcoal, "it'll never last, you need to use better materials" 
*


----------



## M Winther

Oil paint can only peel from acrylic gesso ground if the paints contain zinc oxide. It's because the zinc oxide forms soaps (saponins) when reacting with the oil, causing a deterioration of the paint film. Then it can begin to crack and peel off because oils don't form a chemical bond with acrylic. But if there is no zinc oxide in the paint then it's no worry and acrylic gesso is fine. The problem is that many people use titanium white that, more often than not, is mixed with zinc white. I only use such whites when painting on alkyd primer, because oils form a chemical bond with alkyds. Otherwise I use pure titanium (alkyd) or strontium white. Strontium white (Holbein) feels like working with lead white. It is somewhat translucent and not as opaque as titanium. However, it is more expensive.

Of course, many amateur painters say, like you, that it doesn't matter because they don't create masterpieces. But I think it's a matter of principle. The "muse of art" doesn't look kindly to painters who are cheating in this respect. Another perspective is that paintings grow more valuable as they come of age. If I had owned an amateur painting that was 500 years old, then I would cherish it. A painting of my grandmother would also be appreciated. But paintings don't survive that long if one uses inferior technique. The cave painters used the most archival technique known to man; charcoal and ochres on perfectly stable ground and in stable climatic conditions. Had they painted with the best modern oil technique and materials then nothing would have been left today. And they were equally good as Matisse and Picasso. 

Mats

(Image from Chauvet cave, here.)


----------



## just

What do you think of his paintings dear artists.


----------



## TatyanaShurtz

abt2k15 said:


> i like the many details being very clean and sharp.


Thank you!


----------



## TatyanaShurtz

M Winther said:


> If it's oils you're using, it will cause the canvas to rot over time. A sad end for such fine work. /Mats


Mats, I size my "raw" canvases with rabbit skin glue. Like old masters used to do. Years passed, no paint peeling has been recorded, the colors are fresh and brilliant. 

I absolutely agree with the concept of no cheating on your muse. I take my art extremely serious. Starting with building my own stretchers, stretching canvases by hand, sizing, experimenting with primers, creating my own painting mediums, researching quality of the paints I use,etc.
Thank you for a valuable info, I learn from everyone, all the time, I do consider myself a beginner painter. I've only been painting in this style for the last few years.


----------



## TatyanaShurtz

Mel_Robertson said:


> Beautiful work Tatyana you are gifted for sure, thats the difference how I see it - gifted artists can only be educated in technique the expression is already there.
> I visited art college at 16 & showed them my work & they told me "we can't teach you anything".
> it didn't make me feel good at all, I was very very sad.


Thank you very much. I started painting at 40. When I got into it full time I didn't want to spare any of my precious time anywhere outside of my studio.


----------

